Monem Salam:  
Welcome to Halal Money Matters, sponsored by Saturna. I'm Monem Salam, and today's episode, we're really going to be digging a little deeper into estate planning. You know, in Malaysia, particularly, it has a dual estate planning system, or you can call it a dual legal system, so one on the Sharia side and one on the conventional side. And how do you navigate through the landscape? When do you choose one over the other, and how do you leave money behind to your children and for other causes according to Islamic principles, and still do it in a tax efficient way? So today, we have a very special guest, Ariffin Bin Sabirin, who's with wasiyyashoppe.com. He has a tremendous amount of experience in this area of estate planning. He's given lectures all across the world specifically on what Muslims should be doing when it comes to leaving their inheritance. I'm really excited to have him on so let's get started.

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So Brother Ariffin, thank you very much for joining us today.

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
You’re welcome, welcome, brother.

Monem Salam:  
I'm really excited about this topic because, I mean, you know, this is, I think, a topic where, the world over, it's a very, very difficult subject to talk about, right? I think the thing that people at least like to do is to talk about death, and what they really, even more than that is actually talk about their own death and what's going to happen after that.

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
I've been in the industry for 29 years, Brother Monem, and in Malaysia. I just want to share Malaysian experience, in Malaysia when, when I first started in the industry in 1998 there were virtually no discussion, no discussion at all about Tarika or about estate planning. Everybody would just keep quiet about it. They think that this is going to be a natural flow whereby, after your demise, your estate is going to be distributed accordingly. There is no problem on it, you know. So it's like a taboo subject, taboo subject. And rightfully said, nobody wants to discuss about what will happen to our estate after our demise, because the word the death itself is, is, is a big taboo to us.

Monem Salam:  
And it's interesting that you mentioned that, because, you know, in America, obviously, there's no there's no Sharia governance laws in America, and so we do encourage Muslims to be able to                                                 have their estate planning done and those type of things. But one of the things that we tell them is, hey, you know, it was easy to do it back in your home country, because there was established Sharia laws that would allow you to do the distribution of assets or the wasiya after you've died, are you saying that that's not necessarily the case?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
No, not necessarily. Because personally I have, I've been invited to give talks to a lot of countries, Middle Eastern countries, Europe countries, UK, Turkey. I found that if you talk about estate planning, it has to be local in context. If you are if you are Qataris, you need to look at the Qataris legal framework. But of course, you would have assets located all over the world, because now we are a global community. So if you talk about asset in other countries, you need to look at that particular country's legal framework. So the more assets you have scattered all over the world, the more complicated and comprehensive your estate planning should be. So it's not like, you know, I understand your approach. There is this, even in Malaysia, you can do up inheritance planning instruments in Malaysia, and it is actually applicable for assets outside of Malaysia, but the legal processes would be long and they will be quite tedious.

Monem Salam:  
Yeah. So if I'm young and I have little assets or maybe no assets, because I'm just getting started, and I happen to pass away, you know, what? Do I have to have an estate plan? Or will the courts or the Sharia courts solve everything for me because I'm a Muslim?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Yeah, that's one of the most common questions I've met in my in my years of experience in this industry, because people will say that I do not have that many assets. I only have a car, I only have a bank account. So should I do my estate planning or not? In Malaysian system, as long as you have an asset, even you only have just one bank accounts, that bank accounts in order after your passing, in order for that bank accounts to be liquidated and transmitted to your rightful beneficiaries, you still need to go through the legal processes. Okay? So in Malaysia, it’s broken up if you're taking because we have dualism system. We have civil and if you have Sharia law, the Sharia court, who administer the Sharia law will principally look into who gets what, who are actually your beneficiary and what are their portions? The civil law or the civil court will actually administer the estate process. So this both systems actually run concurrent in the system of inheritance in Malaysia, so even if we just have one bank account, you need to go through the legal processes, yeah, so do I need to do my inheritance instrument? What my inheritance planning or not, depending on your wishes, if, if you are looking at all your estate to be distributed according to fara’id law. So you need not to do any planning at all, okay? Because that will be your one bank account will be distributed to your fara’id beneficiaries. But if you even, even though you only have one bank accounts, but you already have a spouse, you have a kid and young, normally youngsters, when they just starting their family, they would have a spouse. They would have small kids, you know. So you want to ensure that your spouse and your small kids is being protected. You can actually do up your inheritance instrument.

Monem Salam:  
Okay, so, and in this particular case also, let's take an example of, you know, young family, young kids, right? And the husband passes away, or both, unfortunately end up passing away. Is there a system in place already for what happens to the children, or is that something that needs to be thought out in advance in the estate plan?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Yeah, Malaysia is unique, because we have 14 different states, and in the constitution of Malaysia. These 14 states have jurisdiction over religious matters. So who gets what the beneficiaries, according to the Sharia principles, falls back to these 14 states. So each state would have a different Sharia framework. But nevertheless, they are quite similar. There is a system in place in the Sharia law whereby, if the husband and the wife pass away simultaneously, what happened to the underage children who will actually take care of the underage children? The system in Malaysia has stipulated that as far as the custodian of the asset is concerned, there is a specific law determining who will become the custodian of the estate for the underage. And there is also custodian of the children itself. So there is two different angle, custodian of estate, custodians of the children. So the law in Malaysia, all in the 14 states law, they have actually stipulated that.

Monem Salam:  
So, where am I living, or is it where I was born?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Where you are living, your domicility.

Monem Salam:  
Okay. And then also, it gets more complicated, right? I was born in, let's say, you know, in, in Perak, I live in, you know, Kuala Lumpur, but I work in Selangor, or something like that. So, and those becomes a little bit more complicated, too. So, yeah, which makes it more of an idea of why you should be, you should have something written down.

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Yeah, in, in some of the countries, Brother Monem, which I travel, they only have one centralized legal system, so it's very easy, but Malaysia, we have 14 different states. So that's what we have been doing over the last 21 years, of our establishment going up and down to the 14 Sharia courts, emitting 14 different judges which have their own perception.

Monem Salam:  
That's true and just we can clear this up initially. Also, is there a difference between, like, a Malaysian Muslim and a Malaysian non-Muslim when it comes to estate planning?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Yeah, for Malaysian Muslim, it's stipulated in the Constitution that the law binding the Malaysian Muslim, as far as inheritance is concerned is a state law. For the non-Muslim. The law that binding the estate situation for non-Muslim is the federal law. So for non-Muslim, they can use will, because will is enforceable. They can will, they can be bequeath their estate to anybody. It's enforceable on whatever formula they can also use Trust, which is quite a common instrument for the non-Muslim. For the Muslim, we can use will, but will or wasiya in what is called in Sharia, wasiya is only applicable if you want to bequeath a maximum of 1/3 of your estate to non-beneficiaries for the purpose of charity. Non beneficiaries is charity organizations, your adopted children. These are non-beneficiaries. But if you use a will to bequeath your estate to beneficiaries parties who are actually receiving your estate based on the Fara'id portion that will depends on the beneficiaries themselves, after your demise, whether they are agreeable to not.

Monem Salam:  
Okay. Kind of, kind of bear back to basics. So the Quran stipulates, right, exactly how the distribution of assets should be out of that, you know, that's, that's where, in the eyes, in the Quran, when the wife gets 1/8 and if you have children, but no daughter, you know that different, okay, then you have 1/3 of all of your assets, right? Because at any point, it basically says, 1/3 of your assets you can give to anybody that you want who is not a direct beneficiary. So it can't you 1/3 cannot go to that wife or the or the ex, the children, you know, those type of things. But you can actually and also the other stipulation is that first out of all of this, your debts have to be paid off.

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Correct, correct. So chronologically, what practice in Malaysia is that when they pass away, all your asset is considered as your estate. So you need. Need to first deduct your debts, whatever liabilities on your estate. You need to deduct that first, and then you have the balance of the estate after deducting your debt. That balance actually you need to deduct wasiya ,1/3 wasiya, if there is any, because it's just a sunat muaqat. You know, it's not something compulsory for you to do it. So if there is wasiya wanted, which you bequeath to non-beneficiary. So you need to deduct that first, then only you get the net balance. And that net balance is the one that we distribute to all the beneficiaries according to their Fara'id portions, or they can also compromise on the formula.

Monem Salam:  
And the debt you would be talking about would be like a car loan. It would be like a house loan.

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
House loan correct, correct, it must be paid off first, and including your Nazar. If you have Nazar during your lifetime, and it's known by your family. You know you have Nazar.

Monem Salam:  
Sorry, what’s Nazar again? Explain?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Nazar wishes that you want to do something during your lifetime. You know which is your the promise, your promise with God, if I get promotion, I would sadaqah10,000 ringgit of my money. So that is Nazar, so you need to deduct that all obligation first.

Monem Salam:  
Okay. So, then we have the Fara'id that's already taken care of, right? We have the debts that'll be settled first. Then we have the wasiya. So the technical part of the was that's estate planning really comes in in planning, the actual wasiya, part of it, which is the 1/3 right. Are there any, generally, are there any estate taxes that you have to pay on when a person dies in Malaysia?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
No, not in Malaysia, there was an estate taxes, but it was abolished in 1988 so there's no estate taxes here.

Monem Salam:  
Okay, okay, so then why we don't worry about taxes? So let's, let's supposing you have now the one, the you know, 1/3 left over. So what are some key components of that 1/3 what, what am I allowed to do with it? Not allowed to do with it from a Malaysian context.

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Okay, probably I should explain also about the inheritance instrument, particularly Hiba, because there's always this confusion between Hiba and wasiya. What is Hiba? What is wasiya? Wasiya is for strictly for charity purpose. 1/3 bequeathed to non-beneficiaries. Hiba is more flexible in terms of distribution your asset. So the difference between Hiba and wasiya is that Hiba is enforceable during your lifetime, wasiya is enforceable after your demise. Hiba is applicable for your asset during your lifetime, wasiya is applicable for your estate after your demise. So there's a clear distinction between wasiya and Hiba there. And I think in Malaysia, Hiba is a widely used instrument. We pioneered Hiba instruments in 2004 and start introducing Hiba as one of Islamic wealth planning instrument, and it has been widely accepted in 2013 in Malaysia, the Islamic Financial Services Act 2013 was enacted, and one of the schedule in that law talks about Hiba of takaful, takaful benefits. So since then, I see 2013 since 2013 the usage of Hiba, and also the demand of Hiba, has increased significantly.

Monem Salam:  
So just to clarify, Hiba in Arabic, means gift, and also same same. In Bahasa Melayu, it means gift as well, right? So what you're basically doing is you're saying, during my lifetime, I will give a Hiba to a particular person, right, right? That becomes much more constrained after I die, right? Because that then becomes wasiya. It cannot be a gift anymore, correct?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
True. True, true. Why the public in Malaysia, the community in Malaysia, give a good response to Hiba is because they see the flexibility of Hiba, because you can give Hiba to anyone. Wasiya is only constrained to non beneficiaries. If you give wasiya to your wife, for instance, your wife is already beneficiaries under the Fara'id law. So whether your wife will receive that wasiya or not, it depends on the other Fara'id beneficiaries, if they are agreeable to it, it's okay. But if they're not agreeable to it, then the bequeath is null and void. On the other hand, hiba, you can give to anybody you want, and it is very. Interesting to note that we have successfully execute Hiba from a Muslim to a non-Muslim. So it's not just you. You can only give it to Muslim. You can also give it to non-Muslim. Because the principle, the principle is that Hiba is a gift. So you can give your asset to whomever that you want, be it beneficiaries, non-beneficiaries, or be it a non-Muslim, or be it an organization this, Hiba, for non-Muslim, we have successfully executed it in Sabah, one of the state of Malaysia, because in Sabah is very normal for the parents to be Christian, but the children to be Muslim, and they're living in the same house. It's very normal. It's very cordial and harmony there. So that we have done in Sabah, we have also have services. We team up with Waqf An-Nur in Johor, whereby the donor can actually Hiba their asset for Waqf purposes in Johor. So Hiba is very flexible, because you can actually fine tune it, tailor-made it according to local context. You know that we have, we have done so far, and as pioneer of Hiba in Malaysia, we've seen tremendous significance shift in terms of awareness and also in terms of response from the public.

Monem Salam:  
So if I, if I want to give a gift, I have a Hiba to my wife, right? Do I have to give like, supposing you have some an investment account, and that investment account I want to give to my wife or my daughter. Do I literally have to change the name of the account or transfer the assets? Or can I say, I'm giving this gift, but only after I die?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Okay? The principle of Hiba I encountered brother a lot of these questions. Does Hiba means the outright transfer of ownership of the assets, be it properties, be an investment account, the research that we have made. We are a research based company. We give grants, a lot of grants, to universities to research on products that we want to develop, only after we got the research finding is fine tuned, according to the Malaysian law, then only we launch it as a product. So the research findings that we got over the last 20 years, this last 20 years of operation, it shows that Hiba need not necessarily means you must transfer outright, transfer the ownership of the asset to the donee. Because, as far as Sharia principle is concerned, and the Sharia application, Sharia law application in Malaysia is concerned, Heba is valid when the pillars, and also the condition, has been perfectly executed during your lifetime. So what are the pillars? The pillars are the assets. The asset must be yours, legally, yours, donor, there must be a donor, donee, and there must be an ijab and qabul.

[18:50]

Okay, so once all of this has been perfected and the pillars has been met. But of course, in Malaysia, because majority we use Shafi opinion in the Shafi opinion is that in order for the Hiba to be enforceable. Not only the pillars must be executed, there must be a condition met, and the condition is called Al-Qard. Al-Qard means tasarouf, or possession of the assets. The title is still under your name. You have Hiba to your children. Myself, for instance, I have three daughters. My Fara'id beneficiaries are my wife, my three daughters, my mother. My mother is still around. My father has passed away a long time ago. I have four younger brothers. So the four younger brothers is also my Fara'id beneficiaries. I bought a few houses, and I bought these houses for my three daughters. So what I have done is I have perfected the pillars and also the condition of Hiba, and it's all documented properly to my three daughters. So if all these assets, all my assets worth, for instance, 10 million, and these three houses worth 1 million each, since that I have perfectly executed all the pillars and also the condition, so these three houses, or these 3 million worth of asset is not considered my estate anymore, because I have Hiba it to my three children, the title is still under my name. Okay, so in Malaysian court there are judgment, written judgment by Malaysian Sharia court stating that transfer of ownership is not considered as qabadh. Is a part of qabadh, but it's not considered as the only qabadh for the Sharia court of Malaysia, and there are some written judgement on it. Stating that transfer of ownership is only administrative matters. So the Sharia matters is that when you execute your Hiba, the four pillars and the one condition, the qabadh  condition, must be met, then is considered done.

Monem Salam:  
Alhamdulillah. That's a really good way to do it. And then also, I've heard in some places also, and wanted to ask you about it from a Malaysian context as well, is that you can basically write almost like a debt instrument, right? Like I owe my wife this much in from her lifetime to for helping me take care of my kids, and she was at home I was working that type of thing. Is that also enforceable within Malaysia as well?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Correct. In Malaysia we have this matrimonial property concepts. When I travel to Middle Eastern countries, they don't have that concept, because in Malaysia is codified from our custom, our long serve custom. So if I borrow money from my wife for whatever purpose. You know, 100,000 ringgit, for instance, I can write an IOU notes. She sign it. I sign it. We go to the notary, and the notary endorsed it. This 100,000 IOU notes from a husband to the wife can be deducted in the estate chronology, which I explained earlier on, can be deducted as one of the debts. Because when you owe money from your wife, that is a debt, yes, but when your wife asks money from you and you give that is Nafkah. There's a different two different concepts, some people, sometimes people get confused, I owe her money, but she also owe me. No for husband, when they give money to the wife. That is a Nafkah, so that can also be deducted, according to Malaysian law, in some of the middle countries, that was not accepted. Middle Eastern countries, there was not accepted.

Monem Salam:  
So now we talked a little bit about the gifts the Hiba, the gifting part. We talked a little bit about house also being able to pass money to your heirs in regards to a loan or some kind of a debt instrument. Now let's get into the estate planning part, right? And what are some, some, some best practices that you've seen, not from a perspective of maybe even not only from a giving it to your beneficiaries, but more importantly, which is something that I really stressed about is, how do you enforce sadaqah jariya, you know, after you've passed away, so that, I mean ongoing charity right to being able to help people out after you've passed away, because that's one of the things that you'll have to continue to get deeds from, from those things. So if you know 1/3 is what, what I'll have to do, then you know, make that 1/3 the biggest amount possible. So, so what are some tools I can use?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
My company is a tailor made boutique in Islamic inheritance company. So what we do is that we do a lot of research, and we found that a lot of millionaires, high net worth customers, they are actually philanthropists, even during their lifetime. Now they're contributing to a mosque. They're contributing to charity organization, and they would want their children to continue the habits, the sadaqah jariya habit. So one instrument they can do is they can do, trust instrument. And we have a trust instrument. We call it Naufal, whereby they can actually place the fund or allocate the fund to this trust instrument for the purpose of charity. So assuming they have been paying sadaqah to their mosque 10,000 ringgit a month for electricity bills and everything. So upon their demise, the trust instrument, which they have actually set up, can be used to continue with the sadaqah jariya, the 10,000 ringgit a month, so that is one instrument they can use. They can also, of course, use wasiya, The one-third wasiya, and they can also use Hiba. I'm glad to explain the Hiba-lil Waqf instrument that we developed with Waqf An-Nur Johor, whereby these people actually Hiba their properties to Waqf An-Nur, the difference between the Waqf SOP and also the Hiba SOP is that for Waqf SOP, you need to execute the transfer of ownership now, because that is according to the Waqf law of all the 14 states. So you need to outright transfer your properties to the religious council of each of the state. But for Hiba, you can actually still enjoy living and getting benefits from the property itself. If it generates rental income, you can enjoy the rental income, of course, with the agreement, consent of Majlis Agama Islam or the religious council, but there's a flexibility on it. So for Muslim sadaqah jariya, you can achieve in Malaysia from trust, charity trust, from wasiya 1/3, and also from Hiba-lil Waqf, which we developed with Waqf fund.

Monem Salam:  
That's really good. And then also, so let's supposing we're now talking about the trust aspect of it. So after you pass away, money from the 1/3 goes into the trust, the trust can get invested, and then the returns on the investment can be used for the sadaqah jariya, right?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Yeah, if it is instructed by the settlor, it is instructed by the person who created the trust that this investment, this trust fund, should be invested here, managed by this fund managers, if it is instructed by them, we can do that.

Monem Salam:  
Okay. And that's a fairly straightforward process, I'm assuming.

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Yeah, correct.

Monem Salam:  
To be able to do that. Okay, great. Talk to me a little bit about some of the roadblocks. What are some challenges that I might face? I think I know. One of them is there's a difference between calling something a Waqf and calling something a trust.

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
A Waqf is jurisdiction of the 14 states. So all these 14 states would have a different interpretation on how to execute a Waqf. So that is a challenge. And the challenge with the state is because the properties, the assets that has been Waqf, except for cash Waqf, which is quite different. But property Waqf, I think the challenge for the religious council of the 14 states is to convince the community that if they Waqf their properties to the religious council, the religious council would actually manage the Waqf properties efficiently. Because although Waqf is under jurisdiction of the state, but realistically, the state is not equipped enough. Be it in terms of capital, be it in terms of knowledge, be it in terms of human resource to exploit the Waqf property to the maximum. So the issue of trust among the community is still relatively high. They want they know the concept of Waqf. They want to be a perpetuity deeds for them after their demise, but they are not confident enough that whatever properties that they Waqf to the religious council will be effectively and efficiently manage Yes. So they opt because from Waqf, they opt for other instruments, and the other instrument is trust, because for trust, they can actually instruct my company was Wasiyyah Shoppe Berhad is a registered Trust Company in Malaysia, so they can actually entrust us with the properties, to manage the properties, collect rental, maintenance of the properties, and all you know, of course, we're going to be charging all our service charges, but the proceeds of the rental, they can instruct us in the Trust Deed to be a channel for the charity purpose. And that is where I explained earlier on. We call we have this trust concept we call Naufal, whereby the client can actually entrust their asset, their properties, to us, and we will manage it on their behalf. Because that is the local standi, or the power of a Trust Company enacted for us.

Monem Salam:  
So you're a trust company that can do it. Can you make the trustee one of your family members?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
In 2017 we launched a product called Mutahabbah. Mutahabbah means mutual love. That's what it means. So it is actually a family trust whereby Wasiyyah Shoppe Berhad, we become the owner, quote, unquote, the trustee of the asset. But how to manage the asset, where to distribute, how much we would encourage the family members, the children, the grandchildren, to be involved as committee of the trust. So the committee of the trust operates within the framework of the trust which have been set up by the settlor, by their father. Their father has set up okay, every month I want this money from the trust fund to be channeled to the amount of 100,000 for charity purpose. And we pull in, we advise the father, so that the children can be pulled in as the committee of the trust, so that they will work together and they will decide, okay, this 100,000 is structured by our father. So which charity that we want to give, what type of charity activities that we want to do. So this inculcate, cultivate the spirit of sadaqah jariya to the next generation. Always encourage that.

Monem Salam:  
Very true. So even in this particular example, there's still you as a trustee that's involved. You're just getting the kids involved, is there, is there a form of trust where there's no corporate trustee, there's only the family member who's doing it? They're doing the investment, they're doing their distribution. They're doing everything.

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Yes, there are. There are actually wishes of our, some of our clients, where they want only their family members to fully operate the trust, which is okay with us. We have done that before, but there are risks. What are the risks? The risk there could be manipulation, because the family members could coexist together and then decide that, okay, let's not do this anymore. Our father has passed away. He doesn't know what we're doing. Now we can just liquidate, sell off and take our proceeds. So with Wasiyyah Shoppe Berhad as a trustee for the asset, even though liquidation can also be done, but it must be done under certain stipulations. So it is better to have a trustee as an oversight body to ensure that the wishes of the settlor is being carried out, rather than giving everything for the beneficiaries to manage. But if our client wants it that way, they want the beneficiaries to involve because they don't want to pay service charge or whatever towards Wasiyya Shoppe Berhad, it's okay with us. It's also doable.

Monem Salam:  
Okay, alright. What are some common mistakes that you found people make, or Malaysians make, when, when they're planning their states in Malaysia?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
I think the most common mistake is the ideal perception. You know, the ideal perception is that I don't have to do anything. My children are okay. I have raised them well, you know, with all the religious teachings and all I've with them very well their relationship is very cordial, so I don't think I should waste money on doing up my inheritance instrument, because everything is going to go smooth. And from my, from my 29 years of experience in this field, brother, that is not always true, because once the parents pass away, you got because you must remember, I have three daughters. You know, I have three daughters. I know how I raised my daughters, but I do not know where my son in law comes from. I do not know their background. I do not know their attitude. So there is always these uncontrollable external factors that will actually influence the relationship of the beneficiaries after our demise as parents. So that would open up the floodgate, because we have seen that cases before, the brothers, the siblings are very good, harmonious relationship. But after the parent passed away, because of estates and these estates are quite valuable estates. You know, they fight tooth and nail for it. So the family institution crumble after the parents pass away. So the most common mistake is for for parents like us, we have children, the most common mistake is that we have this ideal perception. Inshallah, everything going to go, going to go, okay, everything going to go smoothly, because our children are good and our children's relationships are good. That is the most common mistake .

Monem Salam:  
I appreciate. That's a very, very good point. You know, when is the right time, if any, to be able to start the process of estate planning? And then the second part of that is, How often should it be revisited?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Yeah, okay. Number one, when is the right time when you're still alive, when you're still breathing, there's, there's no, I think there's no instances, because I've, I've met questions like, you know, I only have one house, one car, just one bank account. So I think I accumulate my wealth first, and after I'm quite stable, I have few I have sizable asset then only I want to go to planning, but sometimes our planning, and God’s planning is different. So the right time is when you're still breathing, when you're still alive. And I've been talking about Hiba in our session, and how the second question, how often you should revisit, you know, Hiba, like I mentioned, is flexible. If you give to your children, you can revoke it, ex parte, one sided party, anytime you wish. So Hiba is very flexible. That's why Hiba in Malaysia. Is getting a very huge response. You know, I Hiba all these houses to my three daughters, touch wood. But if anything happen, you know, I might change my mind. I do not want to give the my eldest daughter for whatever reason. So I want to give to my two daughters. I can actually revoke the Hiba and I can give it to my two daughters. So how often? There's no time specific timeframe, but we have 100,000 customer that doing Hiba with us. It is normal for the customer to come back to us every three to five years when their portfolio changes, because sometimes they Hiba  this asset, and then they acquire new assets, sometimes the existing asset, they have sell off. You know, they have sell off, they get cash, and they want to do something with the cash. So because their portfolio changes from time to time, the situation changes from time to time. We see our 100,000 over customers coming back to us within the time frame, within three to five years.

Monem Salam:  
Yeah. And also, I think another good, good rule of thumb is many major life changes, right? You have a new child, you're one of your relatives dies, you get divorced. That's the biggest part of it. If you, if you named your wife as a Hiba, and then now she's your ex-wife, if you don't change anything, you now, your ex -wife is going to get a really nice Hiba.

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
I just want to put a note there. When you Hiba to your wife it’s not revocable unless you give consent to it. Hiba is revocable only Hiba from usul to Furu’, parents to children, grandparents to grandchildren, you know, usul to Furu’, then one you can revoke it anytime, ex parte. But if you Hiba to your wife you want to revoke it, you need to get her consent, and that would be problematic if you already divorced, because we have seen cases like that. The wife, the ex-wife, go and caveat the properties in the Land Office. So obviously the ex-husband came back to us, said, I want to revoke this Hiba. The only allowed principle under the Sharia is that is, since that this is your wife, you need to go back and get her consent, which obviously you will never get.

Monem Salam:  
Of course, that's right. Alhamdulillah. And then one last question that I have for you. It's a little bit off the topic, but I'm sure you'll be able to answer it. You know, when I'm when I lived in KL for Kuala Lumpur for quite a few years, and you would see in downtown, like KLCC area, or those things, you would see building, building, building, and then an empty land. And that empty land is now a parking lot, and you're building, building, building, empty land. And one time, I was just talking to one of my friends, Malay friends, and he said, you know, all these empty lands with parking lots, these are all lands that are in dispute after somebody passed away. And so just your comments on, how does that happen, like, how does you know? And some of those have been there for, like, years upon you decades or sometimes that long. So how does that happen? Or, what did they do wrong? And what can we learn from that?

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Yeah, that's why we keep educating the Muslim upon demise execute the inheritance the estate process as soon as possible, because you do not want the existing beneficiaries to pass away while waiting for the estate process to be settled. You know, because when they pass away, their beneficiaries will come into the picture successing their father or their father's their mother's portion. That's why in Kampung Baru, in KL is a beside KLCC, the situation that you mentioned earlier, I believe that is Kampung Baru area, one piece of land, 4000 square feet, 6000 square feet. The beneficiaries who are entitled to it are up to 170 beneficiaries, 200 beneficiaries, because the inheritance, the estate process has not been expedited, some of the beneficiaries passed away along the way. So there are beneficiaries replacing their fathers or their mother's portion. And that actually make the number of beneficiaries entitled for the that piece, small piece of land, few hundreds. When it comes to few hundreds, it's very difficult for you to get a compromise and to settle it.

Monem Salam:  
That's true. And also the other one, the other part I would mention also, is that, you know, for expats, those who are living in Malaysia and stuff like that, I have heard stories where, you know when, when the land needed to be sold or and had to be passed down. The in common in Malaysia would be, oh, you have relatives in Indonesia. We have to go to them, and we have to get either their consent, or they have to claim some of the land as well. And that can happen from anywhere, from anywhere in the world, where you might have you know, people in your wasiya, or people in your in your Fara'id, that are living anywhere in the world, and you have to go and get permission from them to do that. That delays the process as well.

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Yeah. For expat, I would recommend for you to do up an executor of appointments, appointment of executor document, appoint a professional party to execute it, so that this professional party are the one that entrusted to manage the estate administration process and to distribute it to your whomever that you wishes, to your beneficiaries, so that will make things easier for expats .

Monem Salam:  
Well, I mean, I know, I know this has been really, really educational. I appreciate your time. The one thing I think I'm getting out of this is, right, you know, it's, it's better to leave your heirs with, with certainty, right, rather than uncertain, right? Uncertainty breeds fitna. It breeds arguments. It tears families apart. So the more you can do, as you as a patron of the family, to be able to do whatever is you can, or matriarch sometimes, you know, the mother is the one who has all the wealth, which is very possible. But leave it very, very clear, so that everybody knows exactly what needs to happen. Really, brother Ariffin, I really appreciate your, your time spending with us and we'll definitely, you know, have you on another show.

Ariffin Bin Sabirin:  
Inshallah. Thank you very much.

Monem Salam:  
 Of course.

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