Halal Money Matters
Episode 24: Appointing the Executor of Your Will with Antonio Glenn
Halal Money Matters Podcast
Episode 24: Appointing the Executor of Your Will with Antonio Glenn
NOTE: This podcast episode was created for a US-based audience and may not be applicable to all audiences and situations.
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Narrator:
The thoughts and opinions expressed on Halal Money Matters do not necessarily reflect the views of Saturna Capital, Amana Mutual Funds, or their affiliates.
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Monem Salam:
Welcome to Halal Money Matters, sponsored by Saturna Capital. I’m Monem Salam. And we have a special guest with us today. Owaiz Dadabhoy, who’s the Director of Islamic Investing for Saturna Capital, but also the president of Saturna Trust Company. Owaiz, welcome to the show.
Owaiz Dadabhoy:
Thank you. I’m glad to be here. Get to be the co-pilot for you today.
Monem Salam:
Today, we actually have a special guest with us. And this is going to be a quiz for all the people that are listeners of Halal Money Matters. Antonio is actually related to one other person that was on our podcast. And so you have to tell us who it was and how they’re related. So with that, I’ll turn it over to you, Owaiz, and maybe you can make a quick introduction to Antonio.
Owaiz Dadabhoy:
So, Antonio, you graduated from the University of Dayton School of Law in 2008, all the way back then, with a focus in business law. You passed the Maryland bar in 2010 and the Texas bar in 2016, and you were selected in License to Practice before the Supreme Court of the United States, which I’m highly interested in. That was back in 2017 and the United States tax court in 2023. You started The Law Office of Antonio Glenn LLC, which is a solo practice specializing in small business consulting, succession planning and estate planning. And that’s one of the reasons you’re here today. Antonio, he’s a member of the state bar of Texas, as we mentioned, Collin County Bar Association, the American Bar Association, business law and estate planning, and currently studying to become a Certified Estate Planner in the great state of Texas. So this is a nice thing that you do, you provide pro-bono estate planning and probate services through an organization called Wills for Heroes and the Dallas Volunteer Assistance Program. So, great to have you today.
Antonio Glenn:
Thank you guys for having me.
Monem Salam:
Okay, Owaiz, I have one thing to say about your your bio that you just said of him. You said 2008 he graduated from law school and you said, way back when. How old does that make us? (laughs)
Antonio Glenn:
Felt bad when you said that. I was like, man... At least that was in the 2000’s, Owaiz.
Owaiz Dadabhoy:
Hey, we’re all in the same boat, though, so...
Antonio Glenn:
I’m the eldest statesman, so I’ll take the hit for you guys.
Monem Salam:
That’s right. So, Antonio, thanks for being on the show with us. It’s really great to have you.
Antonio Glenn:
Thank you guys so much. Looking forward to it.
Monem Salam:
I come across a lot of people and I’m guilty of this, too. Initially, that’s what I did as well. First of all, it takes a long time to be able to get the courage to write your own will. And then when you’re writing it, one of the questions that comes up is, who do I want to be able to become the executor on the will? The idea was, is that the first person that comes to your mind probably is going to be your wife or your mother or your father, relatives, you know, that type of thing. Somebody you’re close to. But sometimes that’s not the best of ideas to do that. What I wanted to talk about was, since you have a lot of experience in this area, you do this for a living. Is it a good idea or not? Why or why not? And then really maybe steps after you are appointed and your loved one passes away. What do you have to do? If my father made me an executor, I would have no idea what I would do. The one thing that I did want to do before we get really deep into subject, I know there’s going to be a lot of words and terminology that are used in this podcast and just quickly highlight some of them. And we’ll do it as a, I say one word, you give me an answer. I’ll start there. Owaiz. Do you have any?
Owaiz Dadabhoy:
Yeah. How about testator?
Antonio Glenn:
So a testator is the person who’s actually writing the will for themself and a testator is normally the male and a testatrix is normally the female.
Monem Salam:
Intestate.
Antonio Glenn:
Intestate means you passed away without a will. And now you’re leaving it up to the probate court to handle your estate plan or your wishes and distribution after you pass.
Owaiz Dadabhoy:
And what you just mentioned there, which was going to be my next one, probate.
Antonio Glenn:
Probate is the process of administering your assets after you pass away. Sometimes you use it with a will or even without intestate, which we used earlier.
Monem Salam:
Beneficiary.
Antonio Glenn:
Beneficiary is the person who’s benefiting from all the goodwill that you set aside for them. So hopefully I am the beneficiary on you all’s life insurance policies. I would greatly appreciate. Thank you.
Owaiz Dadabhoy:
I’ve got one for you. Successor trustee on a trust.
Antonio Glenn:
So the successor normally is the back up. Think of it as the contingent or your backup person to the person you already named in your trust for a successor trustee.
Monem Salam:
Executor.
Antonio Glenn:
Executor. What we’re talking about today is the person who sometimes they use the term personal representative, but it’s the person who executes your will once you’ve passed away.
Monem Salam:
Great. Antonio, do you have any that we’ve left out and we’re like, oh, my God, we shouldn’t have totally used?
Antonio Glenn:
Oh, no, no. That was pretty good. That’s a good basics.
Monem Salam:
Here’s the scenario, right? So I’ll just use my example for this purpose. So my dad, who has a will and he names me, hypothetically, he names me as the executor. We talked about the person who’s going to be personally responsible for that. So right now, I don’t live in the same state as my dad. Does that matter or not? But then what do I do? Like, what’s my steps?
Antonio Glenn:
I might give you a little two-track on as we go down. One will kind of be me as being the executor, as the person, and then kind of on the legal side, being a lawyer, understanding a little bit better on what might be the optimal, most beneficial thing to do, when I give clients advice. So in your situation, for your executor, your dad can name you. He probably trusted you the most to execute his will. Me being a convert to Islam, I would name someone who’s probably Muslim who I know is going to execute my will Islamically, to be executor of my will, as opposed to a family member. So like if my parents were still living, I would our opt out of them and probably named my spouse or someone else. But when you name that executor, someone you can trust, it won’t be someone close, because normally the timeframe to go to probate is a little bit after the person has passed away and you’ve gone through a number of things, that person’s a little closer. But the executor is someone that you would name, that you really trust, that you think is going to be able to be responsive. Your dad would name you because you’re younger than him. You probably would survive him, you know, hopefully, Inshallah (if God wills), that’s the goal. Even though you’re not in the same state, there’s some other documents I would recommend someone being closer, like vicinity-wise, or proximity-wise to them. But the executor, he would appreciate you taking care of that for him.
Monem Salam:
Before my dad passes away. He doesn’t have to tell me. Right? Or does he have to tell me that I’m going to be the executor?
Antonio Glenn:
No. It would be wise to let you know that he’s asking you to take on that opportunity so you know where the assets are. One of the biggest thing is, people do name trustees or executors or guardians, but those people don’t know. They don’t know how to access the information that they need to get to in order to administer the probate or the estate as the testator wanted them to. They don’t need to tell you all the specifics like, hey, this goes there and everything that they’re gifting, but they should give you some idea of, hey, if anything happens to me, this is where you need to go to find the documents you need to.
Monem Salam:
And then it’s my right to say no, I might not be invited for Thanksgiving dinner next time, but I can say no to like acting like that, while he’s alive?
Antonio Glenn:
And if you feel as though it’s too much for you, yes. Then say no. Give that person an opportunity to change. It’s a lot easier for them to name someone else as their executor. But you can also disclaim too. So if a person is still named executor, the person who testastes them to be that and then they decide, hey, you know what? Now that person’s passed away. I’m older, I’m sick, I just can’t do it. You can always step down and disclaim that position and then that successor executor would get named then.
Monem Salam:
How do you quickly just say, I don’t want to do this anymore?
Antonio Glenn:
If you say it before he finishes his document, you just tell them, hey, I’m not going to be the executor. And then they can name someone else, they can update it, they’ll call their attorney, he’ll update it and name a new executor. Most attorneys already have a successor executor in place. So if you say no, if you go to the court and say no, then that person just picks it up. They go to the court, they say, hey, Monem, he decided he didn’t want to be executor. I’m successor executor, and I’m going to step in his place and go from there.
Monem Salam:
So it’s just a letter to the court.
Antonio Glenn:
Yep. Sometimes the court will just ask for an affidavit or a signed letter from you just saying, hey, I’m not going to be executor, I’m going to pass it on. And that’s what’s in his will.
Monem Salam:
It kind of begs the question, if I’m the one who’s saying no, then who’s the one taking the document to court?
Antonio Glenn:
The successor executor. If you don’t want to be executor, hopefully you would say, hey, I see who the sucssessor executor is, it’s Owaiz, I’m going to give him the document. I’m not going to accept the responsibility. You give it to the next in line and then that person takes it to court.
Owaiz Dadabhoy:
I think it’s it’s interesting because on beneficiaries, on bank accounts and other kinds of accounts, it’s obviously super important to keep updating those. Right? But if you have a trust, you’re going to name it in the trust and fund the trust that way. But this just gets me thinking even on the executor. So let’s say there’s a father. He names one of his kids as the executor and that kid dies. Then you haven’t changed that and you don’t have a successor. Or even if you do, you may want to continue to update your trust. So how often do people come back and do that with you?
Antonio Glenn:
Normally, I try to send something every two, three years to clients. Hey, this is a reminder when you’re updating your beneficiary forms, has there a lot changed in your family plan? Have your kids become adults now, where before they were minors? Maybe you can address that. Many times they still have the kids on as, or whomever is the executor, and then they may change. You can do what’s called a codicil. A codicil is an addendum to your will, so you don’t have to rewrite the entire will. You can just do a codicil and sign and notarize and attach it to the will and just say, Hey, I’m updating my executor or my successor executor based on the new circumstances.
Monem Salam:
Okay, So now my father’s passed away. I was the executor. I’m still obviously going to be grieving over my father’s passing, but now I have to come up with all these responsibilities that I have. So what are they and what are the timeframes, so what’s the first one?
Antonio Glenn:
Yes, it’ll probably take you a few months. When my mom passed, it took some time to get everything organized and put in order. You’re grieving, you have the funeral, you’re trying to deal with new living arrangements and everything. So the timeline really is, for an executor, one thing is with creditors and debts and things like that. Some of those are coming a little earlier than expected. An executor normally will go and probate the will. They’ll take the will to the probate office and this kind of kicks in the creditors to come forward. So creditors have up to six months to come forward and say, hey, Monem’s dad had medical bills. We need to come in and collect on that. And that’s kind of good. Even if you have a trust, I advise my clients to come and probate the will because now you can clear it of the creditors before you start making distributions on the estate and giving assets away. You know that that person’s paid off their debt.
Monem Salam:
From the moment that my dad passed away, is there a time limit that I have to start the probate?
Antonio Glenn:
No. Most states give you about three years actually to go and do a probate.
Monem Salam:
Technically, if my dad had a lot of debts, I should wait until the third year.
Antonio Glenn:
No, because they’ll come collecting right away. So debts, they’ll say, hey, as soon as the person dies, you have life insurance, you have other funds, you have a house. We need to come and collect immediately. And that’s what you do. Because most of the time in the will, the first thing you want to do is pay my expenses, pay my debt cleared off, especially Islamically, you want to clear those out.
Monem Salam:
Like, for example, let’s suppose my dad owned a credit card, right? And then he had make up a number, $10,000 worth of a debt. Okay, if I don’t probate, then they would never know that he died.
Antonio Glenn:
If they start sending bills to him and he’s not paying them, it goes on his credit report. So, no, they may not know. You’re right. They may never know.
Monem Salam:
So then I would want to wait the three years.
Antonio Glenn:
No, they can still come. So if you waited the three years to probate, then you have to publish the probate. So the probate is a public process and you notify everyone, hey, we’re probating my dad’s will and estate. If you have any debts or anything, come forward now. But most people are like, hey, just want to pay the debt off. Most credit card companies too, you give them a death certificate and most of the time in their policy, they’ll just discharge the debt for you if it is a certain amount.
Monem Salam:
Discharge the debt means forgiven.
Antonio Glenn:
Yes. Now, medical bills, they don’t always do that. It’s hundreds of thousands of dollars. They don’t always easily just discharge with a death certificate. For the most part after they show, hey, the person doesn’t have the assets to cover those medical bills and the spouse or the family and the estate doesn’t have the money to accomplish that, yeah, they’ll work on discharging that debt and then you’re kind of free from that. So that’s not lingering over your head. As an executor, you have a duty to resolve that as well, as soon as possible, because you do have a fiduciary duty as the executor.
Owaiz Dadabhoy:
You mentioned probate and going through probate. So if you have accounts that are not named under a trust, you’re going to go through probate. It’s going to take time. You’ve got to go through all these processes. You also have to file taxes before you can do anything. And so I think what trust does is it if you can name the accounts in the trust, then it avoids probate. Right? And so it’s no longer a public scenario. Now it’s a private scenario. You don’t have to go out there and announce you can wait for bills to come in if you want to. And also, there’s not as much of waiting in terms of distribution. You might have some expenses and you say it clears some of that money out of the trust. Whereas in the will it takes time. You’d have to wait to withdraw any of the money. So this is probably a conversation that comes up quite a bit with your clients, right?
Antonio Glenn:
Yeah. Because the bigger thing is if a person passes away, like you’re saying, Owaiz, you have to wade through that probate process. Now, there are things we can do with a bank account, like a transfer on death or payable on death, where you can take the death certificate and get some of the money. But most of the time, yes, when you have that will, especially during COVID, people couldn’t access their account. They couldn’t get the money from the life insurer or they couldn’t get the money from the will, they couldn’t get through probate because probate was closed. There was nothing you could really do. I do tell them, hey, set the trust up. Now you already have a trustee in place who can manage all of these things for you. The other thing that happens too, when a person passes away, now your power of attorney and your medical directives have extinguished. Those have gone out. So a person may have been able to handle your financial affairs with your POA, but once you pass away, they can’t use that anymore. And now they have to go through the probate process, which can be expensive. It can be a little bit complicated. And if you know what you’re doing, then it’s taking you a while to get through that and it’s still public. So I do advise them, hey, a trust, and funding the trust, and having a trustee set up will make things a lot more seamless for you.
Monem Salam:
I’ve decided I’m going to file probate with the will that’s there. So now what do I do?
Antonio Glenn:
So you’ll go down to the courthouse. Most of the time it’s a probate court. Sometimes they call it the will of registers. Whatever is in your state. You go there, you take the will. You fill out whatever documents that they have. They have various probate levels. So maybe a zero to 50,000 as a small estate affidavit, that’s in some states. Me being barred in Maryland, they have a small estate. Here in Texas, you can do what’s called a muniment of title. So if you don’t have any debt, it’s really simple. You just transfer anything. Most of the time people use this to transfer their car or transfer their house, but you still have to go to court and prove it up. So once you go, you get on the docket from probate, you file, hey, I want to submit this will. The clerk submits it and they put you on the docket and you’ll go in and see one of the judges for a prove-up. They have to show that the will has been authenticated. This is why we recommend having two witnesses and a notary. So it’s easier to prove-up that will. And it’s just a much easier process. If you don’t have that, sometimes you have to call the witnesses in to verify that that will was signed properly. And this is the easiest route. You pay your fees and go from there and then the judge will ask you, are you getting a testament? You need letters of administration as the executor so I can start marshaling the assets, pulling everything together, or I can start transferring assets as I see fit.
Monem Salam:
Okay. So you’ve mentioned something about a docket. So can you just briefly explain what a docket is?
Antonio Glenn:
Yeah. So the docket is the schedule that the court has for its judges. The judges have their calendar set when they’re in chambers. And when you go in to meet with the clerk, you’ll file your petition and then they’ll say, hey, this is the date we can get you on, so we’ll get you on the docket. So that’s what it is. Just think of it as the schedule for the court.
Monem Salam:
And how long, I’m sure it’s different for different courts. I mean, is it normally like a couple of days or...
Antonio Glenn:
The quickest would probably be maybe three weeks, maybe a month. Most of the time you’re looking at 30 to 60 days out to get on the docket. And so you got to be prepared for that and try to get in, especially if you’re trying to file exingent circumstances, which is like an emergency and you’re trying to get that in. But for the most part, you’re looking at 30 to 60 days.
Monem Salam:
So in those 30 to 60 days, if my dad was the one who was handling all the expenses and that type of thing of the household, now is, I guess, I’m assuming his checking account and stuff are frozen because he’s passed away.
Antonio Glenn:
Yes. So once he passes away, I think I mentioned earlier like your financial power of attorney, your medical directives, all those powers have been extinguished. And so the bank may be willing to work with them if they show a death certificate and say, hey, we’re waiting for the court. Most of the time the court will give you what’s called a letter of administration, which allows you to marshal assets and start collecting things to make sure that money isn’t being spent or someone isn’t coming to take personal property or other things that the decedent and then the executor is able to go in and manage all of that for them.
Sometimes it’s just a waiting game, too, of we can’t do anything until we can get into court to get some some documentation.
Monem Salam:
So it’s like, for example, so then the court would give you that letter of administration within a day or two, and then you can use that to go to the bank?
Antonio Glenn:
Yes, but most of the time you’ll still have to wait that 60 days to get that letter of administration, unless it’s a smaller estate, you may have to plea. Sometimes the executor will have to come out and say, hey, look, Antonio, I need to hire you because I can’t get the letter of administration. Do you think you can get some type of emergency action with the court to allow us to do it? Because we need to pay the mortgage, we need to get the money out the bank, especially where some families, where if the husband and the dad was the, you know, sole provider and the mom doesn’t really understand or have access to the accounts, what we’ve see then that calls for a troublesome situation where they have to get loans from the bank until the money is unfrozen and released.
Monem Salam:
That’s a fairly disastrous scenario. But I mean, if it goes longer than two or three months...
Antonio Glenn:
Oh, yeah, the COVID situation was really bad, especially too, sometimes when it comes to the house, because if they didn’t do the will properly or if they passed away intestate, sometimes that surviving spouse is unable to transfer title to the home until you finished the probate process. And now you’re like, oh, I can’t afford this mortgage anymore without my spouse.
We want to sell, but we have to wait for the court to kind of manage that process and get us through that. So that’s a part of it too, in the will of making everything go smoothly.
Monem Salam:
Because now everything mostly is done online. The bank would never know that my dad passed away. Technically, the recurring bills will continue to recur.
Antonio Glenn:
Yes.
Monem Salam:
And then if I had access to that account then I could technically go in there and pay bills.
Antonio Glenn:
Yes, that’s what most people try to do on the side. I mean, they go in and handle it. The executor or the surviving spouse manages it until they can get some type of resolution from the court. If you have to do that, I would just say from a legal standpoint, just keep records, keep records of, hey, you know, I took out a withdrawal or I paid the mortgage to show that there weren’t any improper transfers or anything like that.
Monem Salam:
Is that legal for me to do that?
Antonio Glenn:
The court understands there’s a need, an emergency need if a surviving spouse has kids and she needs to pay the mortgage, she did what she had to do. Again, she kept record of that. If it was me going to my dad’s account to go buy, you know, a new car or something like that, then yes, anyone else who was a beneficiary or the court to say, hey, you know, you stepped outside the bounds of what you were responsible for. You need to pay that back, or there could be some other repercussions in that situation.
Monem Salam:
But I just want to be clear. A new car for myself is always a necessity.
Antonio Glenn:
Oh, yes. True. Yes. Okay. (laughs)
Monem Salam:
So now I filed with the court. I have a court date has been set up. So basically a waiting game until the court date. I might have access to the accounts, Inshallah, I do. And I’m able to do whatever I need to do. In those two months, what I’m doing is maybe, hopefully collecting an inventory of assets.
Antonio Glenn:
Correct.
Monem Salam:
My dad is very meticulous, so he probably has a spreadsheet that’s... (laughs) If you don’t and you’re going to have to make, it will help you to make your own spreadsheet.
Antonio Glenn:
During that time, I mean, people will be calling you. Oh, you know, Auntie wanted me to have this, you know, Grandma wanted me to have that. So you’re working through that situation and you as the executor, like, no, nobody’s going in the house or you’re not living in the house unless you’re paying rent. Let’s not start setting things up. That is when the family dynamic comes in which no lawyer can really, you know, control that situation. So it’s really the executor sometimes calling, saying, hey, look, my sister is in here trying to take X, Y, and Z. You the executor, you’re trying to control that. So she’s not riding off with, you know, dad’s new car and that’s supposed to be, you know, given to someone or sold to get, you know, funding or other money for other purposes or to pay off debts. So that’s what you’re really doing and that. You’re really controlling the situation for the decedent.
Monem Salam:
I mean, I use my example of my dad, but also I remember when my grandmother passed away, each one of her kids was like, oh, you know, that piece of jewelry? Yeah, yeah, she gave it to me. Yeah, she put my name, on it, you know?
Antonio Glenn:
Everyone has already eyed what they want, you know, handpicked what they want to try to deliver. And for the executor, sometimes it’s tough. But when you go back to the question of, you know, should your dad tell you what’s going on, he should give you some idea of what you want so you’ll know. Because everything happened so fast, you’re in grief.
As soon as the grief over 48 hours, they’re thinking, okay, Pa’s just passed away. Let’s go get, you know, where he wanted me to have, so...
Monem Salam:
Jewelry is part of an estate. And so it needs to be distributed according to the rules of Islam.
Antonio Glenn:
Yes. Yes.
Monem Salam:
You have a really nice, expensive piece jewelry, it might blow you out of your, you know, one sixth or whatever it is, your allocation needs to be.
Antonio Glenn:
Oh, yeah. I mean, definitely. If you’re including jewelry in your estate plan, you know, and I tell clients, too, if you’re older and you know you want your daughter to have it, give it to her while you’re living, it’s not a part of your estate now. You’ve gifted it. You made the present intent to gift and giving it to ‘em. Maybe it might be in a safety deposit box, but you say, hey, that’s yours. We’ll just keep it in there. You can keep it in there if you want. And then you have some control over that, especially if you’re talking about like an Islamic distribution schedule. And so when other people know, they’ll understand too. Hey, if your parents are still living, what’s going up? So everything doesn’t always go down to the kids. I get some clients and I’m like, hey, is your dad still living? He’s going to take a percentage of that. Maybe you guys want to have a conversation of what that looks like if you want to give certain things away immediately.
Monem Salam:
The court date has come. Go for it.
Antonio Glenn:
Go in the court. After COVID, you can kind of do a Zoom video. The judge will come on. Most of the time you don’t need an attorney. Sometimes you do. But the executor will say, hey, here’s the will, I submitted it to probate when I took it to the clerk’s office. Here’s what I want to have. Here’s my identification. Here are my witnesses, here is my notary. The judge will say, do we have any complaints from the state? The state say, no, we think, you know, this is legitimate. This is a time too, if someone wants to contest the will, they might, you know, write something to contest it. Most wills put in. If you can test a will, you can’t take anything from it because they just don’t want to have contested wills all the time because someone’s upset that they get mom’s jewelry that they had set aside. So you go in and once that’s proved up, the judge will say, okay, what size estate do you have? What do you need? The executor will say, I need a letter of administration. We need to retitle the home. Sometimes there’s heirship on who has a title to what because it wasn’t specifically named in the will. So there may be some heirship provisions that need to take place after that. But then the judge will give you a letter of administration and then you’re off to go distribute, pay debts, close out accounts, and start doing everything that they assigned you to do.
Monem Salam:
You mentioned something else, which we didn’t talk about. For financial accounts, I think you need the letter of administration, but you also need a death certificate. We never really talked about that part of it, but...
Antonio Glenn:
Normally when you go to a burial or where you’re doing the funeral arrangements, normally that department will help you get the death certificate. So that can take a little bit of time too, yes, because those send it to vital statistics. Once you do, hey, I need to bury my dad. Here’s all of his information. And they’ll file that for you. Most of the time, whoever does the burial, they’ll go through the act of ordering the death certificates for you. And you get that. Sometimes you can use the death certificate to access the bank account if you’re labeled as the payable on death or if you’re the beneficiary. So if you’re the beneficiary and the executor, kind of works out because they’ll give you some information. You can say, hey, I have the death certificate for my dad. I am the executor and I’m a beneficiary, can you give me this? With life insurance, you know, everyone doesn’t believe in life insurance, of course, but those who do, have it, maybe through their job, they’ll put a beneficiary on and that person will contact them and get that information. The good thing is, like your dad, being meticulous, have a spreadsheet that has this information, because if the executor doesn’t know, he doesn’t know. And you would hate for a life insurance policy or annuity or something to lapse because that person doesn’t know that that’s supposed to get paid. And now everything you’ve invested in kind of goes by the wayside because nobody knows where the information is.
Owaiz Dadabhoy:
On a will, sometimes you can do it yourself. You can go through some kind of online service and people do that so they don’t have someone really guiding them. So what ends up happening, I think, a lot of times is, people have old beneficiaries still on their accounts. When the will comes up, the beneficiary that’s listed there, that’s going to take precedence. That’s one of the benefits of going the other way, which we’ll talk about in a little bit, is you get really, really deliberate about what you’re doing, right? You say, look, we just created this and now you need to name the beneficiary on these accounts, retitle the account and so forth. And so I think there’s some protection in going other than the will route, just going through probate and finding the right person and the timeline. It just seems like a lot of work for someone to take on and a lot of waiting. Just going to the DMV is hard enough now, you’ve got to go through the court system here.
Antonio Glenn:
We kind of gave you the fast track version of a probate process. If everything goes right, you have a smaller estate. But could you imagine having a bigger estate? Maybe you have property outside of the state. So if I’m living in Texas, but we still have a place in Virginia, my executor now has to fly there and open up another probate estate in Virginia to transfer title to that Virginia home. Right? So now you doubled the cost. You doubled the difficulty of what you’re trying to do and the timeline to do it in. So the trust route is another way to go. The other thing, too, is when you set up a trust, the executor has no control over the trust. If that person isn’t the same, then the executor’s jobs can actually be very, very simple, right? If things are in a trust. Or it can be very difficult if everything’s in the will and he now has to find people, he has to find property, he has to make the distributions. And if there’s heirship claims or other difficulties, that will be different too. The beneficiaries on all of these contracts, all of these non-probate assets, life insurance, 401(k) for the most part, different bank accounts, brokerages accounts, all those kind of things are non-probate assets because they don’t pass through that probate process.
They pass outside of probate because they’re a contract with that individual and the executor probably doesn’t have any control over that unless that non-probate asset has the estate as the beneficiary. And we could talk about that too a little bit on how to name your beneficiary to make sure it goes where you want it to go in your estate plan.
Owaiz Dadabhoy:
Have we talked about the cost of probate at all, like what the court will have to charge and all that?
Antonio Glenn:
The cost of probate is sometimes very tricky because it could be based on how much assets you have. So if you have a home, eight hundred thousand, and you have all these other assets, the cost of probate has gone up because it’s based on a percentage of what you have sometimes. Unless you’re doing a simple muniment of title transfer or just getting a small letter of administration, your costs can be pretty high because now it is somewhat determined on based on how many assets you have. And again, my other example, if you have property or other dealings outside of your home state, you have to go to that state and open up a probate. So you have to fly there. You have to wait to get on the docket there, and then you have to go through that whole process again. Most of the time, we always recommend for someone who has property, rental property, or just even a vacation home, put that in a trust. The cost that a trust is going to save you, just the beginning part of the probate process if you have to probate that property later on.
Monem Salam:
So Antonio, what is that percentage?
Antonio Glenn:
I would say between one and 3%.
Monem Salam:
If I have, like you mentioned, you’re living in Texas, you have a property in Virginia. The court’s going to give me that letter administration, right?
Antonio Glenn:
You can take that letter and say, hey, we’ve already gone through the probate process in our home state of Texas or in the domicile state of the decedent. That Virginia court is still going to want to go. That might make it a little easier for you, but you’re still going to have to go through their court process in order to move forward in that probate.
Monem Salam:
And so we talked about you go into the court, you say, this is my beneficiaries, this is the witnesses, everything is fine.
Let’s supposing you come and say, wait a minute, this beneficiary was an ex-wife. I want to change that beneficiary because she’s no longer around as far as in the marriage. So if I just had a simple will and I had named my ex-wife, then what happens?
Antonio Glenn:
So the good thing is, when it comes to a will, most states see it is if you’ve divorced that spouse that you had in your will, they will treat that person as predeceased.
Monem Salam:
Define predeceased.
Antonio Glenn:
Oh, so predeceased would mean that that person passed away before the decedent passed away. It would treat it as, hey, they were married, let’s say, you know, ex-wife is on, the court will say hey, we’ll scratch that because they were divorced. We’re pretty much certain that what he wanted in his estate plan is different now that that person has passed away in the will. But if that person is still named as the beneficiary on those non-probate assets, that’s the problem. The court won’t interfere because it’s not going through probate. That party or whatever that financial institution is, is now obligated to pay out that contract based on who’s on the beneficiary forms. So the court cases in the past, that’s what happened.
Husband passed away, new wife thought, oh, okay, I’m sure to get everything on the life insurance and the retirement and everything. Ex-wife was still on and they went to court. Ex-wife continue to get it as the beneficiary. And so now financial institutions have been really adamant about updating your stuff every year.
Monem Salam:
So far, we’ve only talked about financial aspects of the will part of it. Right? But there might be something about your kids, for example, who’s going to take care of them.
Antonio Glenn:
So in your will, most of the time we put in a provision. If a couple has minor children and they decide not to do a trust, then you want to have some guardianship provisions in there. If something happens to you, your kids are going to go with the other parent. Right? But Allah forbid something happens to the both of you, then what? That’s the question. We put in guardianship provisions on, hey, if something happens to the both of us, who are our minor children going to go and be with? And that’s something else that the executor wants to take control of. Hey, you got three kids, you want them to go to your sister and her husband who have kids, too, who are already, you know, know their nieces and nephews. They have kids. They maybe go to Islamic school. They live close by. If you have minor kids, the grief for an adult is tough. But for minor kids to have to go through that, you want to get them to the best places possible. The worst case scenario is here in Texas, a mom, maybe separated husband, husband and wife pass away. Now you got three and four kids who have to go to foster care. They might have to go to foster care to a non-Islamic household because that’s the only people who can take them on such short notice. And there’s no one there to step in and say, hey, I’m the executor, I have some control, I know who the guardian should be. They should go to this home, it’s already set up for them and then go from go from there with those provisions in place. So guardianship in the will, the executor should definitely have some control over that so they can step in and handle that because like you say, that’s not financial and you don’t want to wait for the court. You want to handle that as soon as possible.
Monem Salam:
Yeah, we’re now in the probate. The simple scenario being the judge signs off on everything that you said in the will. If there is something fishy, I don’t know what that would be. Maybe you can talk about that. What happens then?
Antonio Glenn:
For whatever reason, you can’t prove up the will, now you have to go and find those witnesses. On most wills you’ll see that they have the address and phone number to reach out to the witnesses, to call them in and say, hey, look, I need you to kind of prove that the decedent wasn’t under undue influence. They weren’t coerced. You have cases where dad was older, sister went to go live with him. Now he updated his will. Now his will says, I want sister who’s taking care me to have the house. To have that new car and all the jewelry. The other siblings are like, well, wait a minute, When did this happen? He never told us about this. So in those situations you do have where siblings will come and contest it and now you have a protracted probate and contested wills situation and then it gets a little bit more litigious in that in that scenario.
Monem Salam:
Hopefully that won’t happen. Now, I have this letter of administration. I have the death certificates and we talked a little bit about now methodically, I have to go through and basically inventory all of the accounts that my dad had in this scenario and then methodically go through and change the naming of the account or transfer the assets, all of those things that are needing to happen, Right?
Antonio Glenn:
Yes. You’re going through and you’re looking at debt. So you’re saying, okay, he had these credit cards, let me make sure either they’re going to discharge it or I’m going to pay them and close it out, because you want to use the money from his estate in order to pay these. That’s who the estate is. And then after that, later on, you’ll do the final tax return. But yeah, you’re going through your inventory. You’re taking that jewelry that you were looking for. Maybe it’s the car you’re transferring title to who you want it to go to, and then everybody’s somewhat represented. If it’s minor kids involved, you want to make sure that whatever is set up for them. So if there was no trust, but let’s say there was a $100,000 for them, that money needs to go in to like a uniform minor’s trust account for them to hold on their behalf until they turn 18. And then they have access to it. Right? And again, closing out the debts, just really trying to make sure that all the wishes that person had is seen through, you know, starting from their funeral, too, because we didn’t even really touch on that. But the funeral down to the disposition of assets and then the close out.
Monem Salam:
I know you’re you’re an attorney, but I mean, I can imagine this being like a full time job while I have my full time job kind of a thing.
Antonio Glenn:
Oh, yeah. So when I was first passing the bar, my mom passed away. I was just getting out of law school. I had just passed the bar. She had some stuff in place, but she didn’t. I have two siblings with special needs, so if you have special needs kids, it’s going to be a lot more difficult. They were minors. I’m not a parent either. So even at being an older sibling, you have to go through more mechanics with the court where maybe guardianship is something on the table. Guardianship actually means you take financial responsibility for that person, right? Almost like a child. So sometimes we’ll tell people you don’t want guardianship, you want conservatorship, which means you have control over their financial well-being and they can stay with you. And as they get older, you manage their money and funds for them and then you move it off to them once they turn 18, 21 or graduate from college. So you don’t have full responsibility. But in my case, yes, it was very difficult because one, only you’re trying to do at a funeral, if they’re minor kids, putting them in school, what kind of documents do you need for that? You know, power of attorney and other things that you have to go to the court to get. And that’s what can really make that situation, which it seems very easy on that fast track. But if you have minor kids and you don’t have the proper documents in place, it can be very time consuming. Social Security benefits, all these kind of things. You have to call and try to go through. Calling Social Security is like a full time job in itself because you’re going to be on hold for, you know, two, 3 hours a day just trying to get a hold. Sometimes I think I make it sound a little easy, but there are a lot of just going through the primary care physician, transferring all these things, which is a very time consuming process even for yourself. If you have to do it for kids where you don’t have all the documentation, they’ll just tell you no, we can’t do anything. And then you have to go back and start all over again.
Monem Salam:
Thank you for mentioning that about about your scenario. How much how long did it take you to kind of settle everything out?
Antonio Glenn:
It took me some time. It took me a couple of months to get everything settled. Two of my siblings were still in high school, so I had to go and kind of get them re-enrolled. I didn’t file for guardianship. Most people knew, based on what I had, that I could get a power of attorney for them. And I used some other documents and then I just took over as conservator. Because if you have a kid with special needs and they’re getting, you know, Social Security benefits, you know, you can look at being their rep payee, which gives you some control in managing that. And then I just had a letter from the court saying, hey, I was their older brother. I had a letter of administration, I was handling everything. And I used the will, death certificate and the letter from the court to really try to manage a few things. It was a little easier because two of the siblings were over 18 so they could sign off on what they wanted. For the two minor kids, I had to go through some hurdles from time to time to get the stuff done for them. So yeah, it can take some time and it’s a stressful process. When you’re grieving, you’re going through emotion, so you probably won’t be thinking about all of this. I have executors who will reach out and call me and say, hey, look, it’s just too much for me to handle right now. Can you step in and handle some of these, you know, duties for me? You can go out and hire an attorney as an executor to say, hey, can you help me manage this? Because right now I’m just, I’m just overwhelmed.
Monem Salam:
Is that a common thing that had to happen or...
Antonio Glenn:
Oh, yeah, it’s very common. Yeah.
Monem Salam:
So even if my dad does name me, I might end up having to hire somebody to do it?
Antonio Glenn:
Correct. Yes, many times. And sometimes if the executor doesn’t want it, the court will step in. The court will assign someone to execute and probate the estate. That person gets paid out of a portion of that estate, that 1 to 3%, sometimes. They’ll normally have to put up a bond. So you’ll see in most will documents it says if the executor is a family member or someone I name, they don’t have to have a bond. But if it’s a corporate executor or a court appointed executor, then I want them to be bonded, so there’s some insurance on what’s going on.
Monem Salam:
After seeing all this and having gone through the process yourself, I know the default for most people is I’ll just have my wife or my kids do it. Do you recommend that or does it really matter? Or...
Antonio Glenn:
Recommending you diversify because it’s a lot on one person. So you can diversify or you can break up the responsibilities. So the executor can be someone close who you know will get the will. They’ll do what you want them to do and take care of it. Your spouse can be, of course, a co-trustee if you have a trust. So maybe you have someone different as the trustee or co-trustee. And then you have someone different as the executor. Most times that first line is going to be your spouse. But then after that, let’s say whoever the successor trustee is, based on our definition, who’s good with money, maybe Owaiz is. You’re like, man, he’s my money guy. He’s going to be the trustee of my account. And, you know, being a trustee of the trust to make sure that the distributions to my kids or to whomever is done right, any investments to keep the trust, replenish and getting funds in it, he’ll be able to manage that. The executor is for a limited time. Maybe yes, maybe my dad or my uncle or someone can go into court or you’ll say, hey, I’ll call Antonio. You know, he’s a friend, he’s a lawyer. I can get him to do it. He can go through that process a lot easier for me. I’ll pay him a little bit and then he’s done. And then Owaiz is my friend. He’ll do the trustee or another family member would be trustee to manage those because that’s a longer duration of time and sometimes you want someone closer for that.
Monem Salam:
So are you saying I can have on my will, one executor who basically is primarily responsible for going to the courts and handling things and another executor on my will that says, okay, you’re only responsible for the financial aspects of it.
Antonio Glenn:
No, that’s the trustee, I was saying. The executor and the trustee are two different people. So the executor is focused on what’s going on with your will. And hopefully if you set up a trust, the executor won’t have a lot to do. That’s kind of the goal of estate planning is I just want to take it to go probate, call the creditors, transfer everything to the trust and then close out the probate and the executor’s job is done. Most of the time you won’t have like, co-executors. That’s just very confusing for the court. The court doesn’t like that. They’ll say, hey, I need one person who’s going to come and handle this. Who’s that going to be? And so if it’s siblings, they’ll tell them, hey, you two need to choose, make a decision, come back in my office and give me a name, and then we’ll go from there.
Monem Salam:
I know you probably see a lot of it where like, oh, yeah, will’s coming in, like Antonio, I just want to name my sibling or my relative as a...do you recommend that or...
Antonio Glenn:
Oh yeah. I mean, most of the time, yeah, they have simple wills and if they already know who the guardian is going to be for their kids, then I tell them, hey, do you think they’re going to be able to handle this once you pass away? So, mostly I tell them, don’t name your mom, your mom’s not going want to do this. You know, unfortunately, when you pass away, it’s going to be really hard for her. Like, if you have a brother, someone who’s like, hey, I’m going to see this through. I’m going to manage this for you. That’s who you want to put in charge of it. And if sometimes people have friends, I have people who are like, I’m not going to name a family member because I know it’s going to be hard on them. I don’t want them to think about it. I have a really good friend who can do this for me. I’m going to name that person as an executor because the executor does have a fiduciary duty to do what you’re asking them to do in the will. So they’re legally responsible for that. You’re not asking them for a favor. And they can always disclaim, as we said earlier, hey, I’m not comfortable being the executor, I know they named me...or the circumstances has changed. We’re not friends anymore. I mean, whatever the case may be. But that executor has a fiduciary duty and they’ll see it through. That’s who you want, somebody you know, with some good fortitude who will make the decisions. Because in the situation where the family does come, if it’s family members of another sibling, then they have cliques, they have favorites. And sometimes that can make things complicated on the family personal side.
Monem Salam:
I mean, I would think of it as you’re putting an undue burden even on your friend who’s not basically a part of your family. He’s doing it probably out of a personal favor.
Antonio Glenn:
It’s a tall order. And sometimes people will ask, are you comfortable with being the executor if I name you? And some people are like, you know what? Let me think about it. Many attorneys who draft the wills, their clients will say, hey, put yourself in as successor executor, because I want someone on the back end who’s going to know...you already know kind of what my intent was in my will. Now you can kind of see that through on the back end and you’re going to execute the will and do it.
And that’s what some attorneys do. They’ll just put their name in or they’ll have the family contact them and they’ll walk them through it. They might not be named executor, but they’re there to walk their family through that process.
Monem Salam:
I mean, everything that we’ve talked about, like probate and all of those things, you can avoid it by doing a couple of things prior to your passing away.
Antonio Glenn:
Correct. Yes. So the estate planning, setting everything up from having a pour-over will, the pour-over will basically pushes whatever you have it retitled or titled to your trust into that trust. And then whoever you name as trustee is able to manage that while you’re alive and then when you pass away. So it’s a much more seamless transition and you don’t have to rely on the courts to make that determination because the courts might do something that you don’t wish to happen based on statutes or some other ruling that day. So maybe someone does think they’re entitled to something, but the judge may see fit to do otherwise with it. And you don’t want to leave that subject to the court. So most of the time people will hear you set up trusts to avoid probate, but most of the time you’re still going to have a small little bit of probate to go and file that will at the court at a minimum and then be done. But a good trust and estate plan makes everything so much easier for you. The cost of an estate plan in the beginning is totally worth it because you’re actually getting most of your wishes in that estate plan. Where if you do probate, you’re probably going to pay more, it’s going to be a lot more difficult and complicated and the fees and money that it’s going to take. Now, you don’t have any control over that. Now there are fees and costs are up to the court. If you have some stuff that has to come out of your estate, it could be much more costly than if you had set that up in an estate plan, and we’re not even talking about tax planning and tax saving and all those kind of things and gift taxes and stuff like that. So you’re even missing those benefits of it as well.
Owaiz Dadabhoy:
Monem and I, we speak throughout the country. We go to different places and we talk about different financial matters. One thing that we’ve seen out there is that the folks that want to become more on their Din and they want to become a little bit more religious. You know, they’re starting at some point to add their prayers and make it five times a day and complete all their fasting, go for Hajj, right. And then they’re looking at what their imams and their scholars are telling them and saying, you know, you got to earn a halal living, right? And you have to spend it in a proper way and you have to invest it, the money that’s waiting, and... But the thing that’s missing a lot of times is what happens afterwards, because there’s rules that are part of the same Din that you have to give your money in a specific way as well. And the reason I bring all this up is because when you go for Hajj, which is one of the mandates, you don’t really worry about the cost of the Ihram, or the wrap. When one of your family members passes away, I mean, you’re not looking for the most expensive place to go, but you don’t like say, hey, this is $9,000. Can you make it 8,500? Right? You’re like, these are the costs. I’m going to find the one that I want to go to and I’m not bargaining at that point. It’s a necessity. And so if you find an attorney and they’re reasonable, I look at this as an act of worship as well. When I completed my trust many years ago, that’s how I looked at it. This is going to give me peace of mind. And also it’s an act of worship. I’m finally doing something that I’m supposed to do here to take care of what happens when I’m not here anymore.
Antonio Glenn:
One thing I tell clients too, when they’re saying, hey, I want a Sharia-compliant will, an Islamic will, is you have this money. If you have a will, you don’t always write in where you want those funds to go after that. Or if you pass away intestate, without a will. But I encourage them, hey, if you have money in your trust, you can give charitable donations from that, that keep replenishing and that money keeps serving you from the grave. So instead of 5000 all just going to a family member, that 5000 can go to your masjid (mosque). It can go to some other Islamic purpose that can serve you in the grave because either your kid’s praying or your money and funds keep, you know, going for Islamic purposes. That’s another reason to incorporate that in your estate plan. So instead of maybe having to pay taxes on that or just losing that out in that process, now you’re able to factor that in, give a charitable contribution, which is tax deductible, and it’s also helping you in Akhirah (the hereafter). So, you know, those are the kind of conversations you want to have with the estate planning to see, to your point, Owaiz, yeah, it’s an investment. Islamically it’s something that we’re supposed to do. I get a lot of clients who want to rush me, hey, I’m leaving for Hajj tomorrow. Can you do my will for me? (laughs) I’m like okay. I’ll assist you where I can. But you can really plan for not only here but in the hereafter. And you can do it in a way that serves you and your family and be a good role model. And I think that’s just a good way for our community to continue to grow if we have our Islamic institutions be able to benefit from that in the hereafter because it works both ways. They benefit the community and Ummah (community) and you benefit those blessings in the grave.
Monem Salam:
Well, with that note, thank you very much, Antonio, for your time. Owaiz, do you have any final thoughts or questions?
Owaiz Dadabhoy:
I mean, I think that was a very good conversation. Maybe there needs to be a part two, because it’s a very big subject when we do go out there and speak and we’ve polled the audience, you know, how many of you have gotten a will or trust not many hands go up. So this education is really vital. And, you know, we’re happy to continue to do that and support of this kind of podcast as well.
Antonio Glenn:
Yeah, part two we’ll go into the trust and other things as well.
Monem Salam:
Thank you so much.
Antonio Glenn:
All right. Thank you, guys.
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